Interview with Zuzanna Mroz

27 minute read Published:

Zuzanna Mroz

Transgender, right-wing and in favour for capital punishment for paedophilia. This is Zuzanna.

Zuzanna Wioletta Mroz was born in March 1999. In one of her videos she states that she “became herself” in December 2015. Zuzanna is Polish, but has lived in Denmark since the age of nine.

She attended the International Baccalaureate, which is an international school thought in English, French or Spanish exclusively. She is pursuing a law degree at the moment, and she wants to specialise in corporate and criminal law.

You state in one of your videos that you were a gender rebel at age 2. Do you think you knew something was different from such a young age?

Knowing that I’m a girl is the earliest memory I can recall. I always knew and had no doubts. The emotion I most strongly associated with my identity was shame. I remember going to a shop to buy a Barbie and being told by the lady working there that I shouldn’t be playing with dolls and should be ashamed of it. I was about 5 then.

How was the interaction between playmates around that age?

Not great, I was always bullied, called a fag, a sissy, I had other, especially older kids throw sticks and stones at me waiting for the school bus. There was a lot of violence, lack of understanding and stigma around my feminine expression. But, I also had a few truly amazing friends. Almost exclusively girls who really accepted me and never questioned my integrity. I remember being so grateful for their friendship and acceptance.

I am sorry to hear that. And you have stated that it was hard coming out as transsexual in the little village in Wrocław. In the current times, even with the political climate surrounding PiS (Law and Justice, a right wing Christian-conservative party in Poland) and the Catholic church, do you think that issue is different now? You speak a lot about positive feedback when you visited your Grandma back in the summer of 2016. Do you think such feedback would be the same in other places In Poland?

I think that being trans in Poland is even more difficult today than it was before. In the big cities, there is some help and yet there is only 1 doctor of sexology in the whole country who one can go to consultation to for free. Hormones, consultations, testosterone blockers and other essential transition related costs add up to approximately 500 pln a month. That’s about 15 - 14 of the national average monthly income. People really can’t afford that. We had a great bill that would make changing gender on legal documents introduced by a trans MP from Poland, Anna Grocka and the bill was so well thought through and accurate that it was passed through both the Sejm and senate. Unfortunately, the PiS President vetoed it. The church is also generally against people like me and there is an absolute lack of representation of transsexuals in the media.

Don’t get [me] wrong, I love my people and I’ll always feel Polish, but in terms of trans visibility and rights we have a long way to go

Do you have the impression that bigger cities, such as Warszawa and Krakow, are collectively more open to different kind of sexualities?

I’d definitely say that people from big cities tend to have a different outlook on things, more experience, more exposure to different people and cultures and that certainly helps them be more tolerant and understanding.

You talk about how you, at some point, you internalised shame for being transgender. Why do you think you did that, and do you think a lot of other transgender people do the same thing?

Despite more and more people saying that it’s nothing to be ashamed of, I internalized this shame because of my own fears about how being trans will affect my life. I worried about finding a husband, about being taken for myself, about losing people, friends when they find out about my past.

Same with career as a lawyer, I couldn’t get past worrying that being trans could be an obstacle.

Talking about husbands, you have talked a bit about dating before on your YouTube channel. As far as I understand, it is a topic that many people are interested in as they think it is so much different. How different is it really?

I don’t really date much. I haven’t quite had time for that between all the academic and work responsibilities. If you pass, dating isn’t really that hard - a lot of men are interested in trans women or don’t mind dating us as long as we are “pretty.” The only true issue are uncomfortable and unnecessary questions, like people not understanding what trans really is. One guy thought that I was transitioning from girl to boy, because he couldn’t believe I could look so feminine…

If people say to you that you “pass as a transgender woman” because they think you look beautiful, how does that make you feel? Where is the line for “passing” and what do you put in that term?

I think that you realize that you pass when men start paying you attention on the streets and children don’t look at you strangely. Passing to me is really important because it gives me recognition and allows me to be recognized as the person I am by the society - at least until they see my ID. Passing also gives me the space and right to exist in public spaces without fear of discrimination, hatred, or aggression. Passing makes me feel like I fit in and am not a broken piece of puzzle anymore. So, when people assure me of passing, I feel really happy and recognized.

So, passing for you is more of an external factor than an internal one?

It 100% is, because inside I’ve always been a woman. Although, at the beginning of my transition I really restricted my feminine mannerism for the fear of being too girly. I can’t really explain, I suppose I didn’t want to be over “acting.” I’ve changed a lot as an individual since then.

I used to worry about what others think much more than I do today.

It sounds like beauty ideals, or at least the way you look, play an important role for you in becoming a woman. In a video about transgender struggles, you present a scenario about going to the beach and not feel comfortable with your body. Is there a special kind of beauty ideals that apply to transgender women or do you feel the beauty ideals are more align with women that are not transgender?

Beauty ideals definitely affect us trans women. We feel pressure to adhere to the same standards as cis women and because of our biology and often the irreversible damage of male puberty, it’s very hard to do so. The feeling in that particular video has definitely ceased to exist now. I’m extremely happy about my body, but at that point, it was really hard to feel confident with a lot smaller hips and chest.

With the recent advances in plastic surgery, people may not realise that you are transgender. Do you inform a person that you are flirting with at an early stage that you are transgender? How does such an interaction usually go forth?

First, I didn’t have any plastic surgeries done. Everything is just natural. I’ve never told a guy I’ve just met that I’m trans. If we flirt for a few minutes and have a good time I never feel inclined to tell him. If things were to go anywhere from that, then I’d tell him upfront and as soon as possible. Either when out getting coffee or if things were to go to the next step after the bar, he’d [of course] know before anything. I never go to the bar with the intention of getting with anyone, I go to have a good time, talk and get to know people.

So, in other words, when flirting goes over to actual dating, is that a correct interpretation?

Yes, if he asks for my number I’ll give it to him and if we should meet up at all, he will know. I don’t think it’s safe for me to tell a tipsy guy at a bar that “oh btw I’m trans.” I also don’t feel inclined to be like, “hi nice to meet you, I’m Zuzanna and I’m also trans.” I want to have a good time going out to a bar, I deserve to live a normal life and shouldn’t have to limit myself all the time because of being trans.

Or because of something I have no control over.

Has it happened that a person, in a similar scenario, got to know that you were a transgender woman, that he rejected you? How do you respond to people that say they are not interested or attracted to transgender women?

There was a boy I got to know at a house party at my friend’s house and he was really sweet. I told him straight after the event on the way to the train station (city trans are kind of like busses in Copenhagen) and he just said he was surprised and that it’s great and brave that I chose to live my life the way I want to, but it’s just not his thing. I didn’t feel hurt or irritated, I couldn’t understand him more. He was extremely supportive, but preferences are preferences. Some like blonds, some brunettes, other prefer curves to a flat stomach. It all depends. It’s always a bit hard at first to stop thinking about how amazing it would be if o was just born in the right body, but life is the way it is and we all have our own special circumstances and issues we have to deal with.

I also get really upset when some trans youtubers like Zinnia Jones or Riley Dennis talk about entitlement to a date or love. It’s not how this works… to me it’s very simple.

I suppose that opinion aligns well with another transgender woman on YouTube as well, and I guess you already know who I am eluding to.

Yes, I do. [Blaire White] and I have a lot in common. I honestly want to have a debate with zinnia, it’s just so absurd that people go on the internet and say stuff like that. It really damages how people see trans individuals.

Do so called SJWs, social justice warriors, have a point sometimes? Is there any point that you agree with on “that side”, that surprises even yourself?

I think the problem with social justice warriors is that even when they make a rational point that can be properly argued at first, they always take it a few billion steps too far and often make their case far too radical and more often than not frankly absurd. When the bill c16 was being introduced, the moderate left seemed to support the notion that the bill should affect people who actively refer to a transexual woman as a he, on purpose and without acknowledging their gender. To me this made sense, misgendering can be a problem and a hard thing to deal with. But, when it came to people having to comply with they and them pronouns and words like Zir and Hir, that the bill was taking it way too far. Also, the 250,000 dollar penalty is insane.

Do you sympathise with those whom have not been properly introduced to “customs” when talking to transgender people? Do you blame such people for misgendering, especially before a transsexual person has gone through a transition?

I don’t blame people who have no awareness of how to approach a visibly trans person. The same rule applies to children. One cannot expect someone who doesn’t know anything about the topic to know how to act. My problem is when someone is just being an intolerant asshole and mistreating someone for no reason. It’s just like seeing a black person and being disrespectful to them because of their skin color. It’s disgusting. But, it has happened even to me to misgender people. Today in the shop I work in, I had a costumer who looked extremely sexually ambiguous and I referred to her as he, clearly offending her. Accidents happen, of course, but don’t be [an] asshole for no reason. Trust me, being a visibly trans person and struggling with dysphoria is already extremely hard without anybody making it harder.

Do you think the idea of treating those people that do not know with understanding rather than outrage is key for more acceptance, especially those of whom are against the idea of homosexuality and transsexuality, for example conservative Christians or Muslims?

I think that open conversation is the only way to solve intolerance. So, I would absolutely agree that a trans person has to understand their side as well and hear them out. Acceptance is a [two-way] stream. When I come across ignorance I always make sure to at least explain how I see things, where I stand and help people understand my story. It didn’t always convince them, but always resulted in mutual respect and that is a starting point.

Is the feeling the same when it is religious people with an agenda? With that, I am not meaning just ignorant, but also hostile to GSRMs?

That’s a good question, I think that we should put in the effort to convince those people of our truth. A conversation and exchange never hurts. But, I think against those extremely radical, right-winged movements all we can do is try to stop the conversion of more individuals into their ranks. I see it to a degree as a black person arguing with members of the [Ku Klux Klan]. It won’t lead far. There are some groups that we should actively try to get rid of through education.

That leads us to a question that I think you knew would eventually come. You identify as right-wing conservative yourself in one of your videos. You also support President Donald Trump. The Republican party has had a history of thinking less of GSRMs, especially homosexuals, linked to them often having followers or members that are Christian or even fundamentalist Christian. Thus, how can you defend supporting such a political figure?

I don’t think that Trump has done anything that came as a harm to the trans and LGBT community whatsoever. It’s absolutely true that the conservatives have generally done more harm to the GSRM’s, but I think that the extreme left actually does more of this harm today. They alienate us, make us seem like little unique snowflakes that need people to walk on eggshells around them and pushing for laws that in the eyes of more conservative people make us look like a bunch of crazies.

I think the right has truly grown to be more open and accepting, especially of trans people.

What is your opinion on Milo Yiannopoulos?

I really like the man. I think he’s extremely brave, says things as they are and presents strong, logical and well thought through arguments. The only problem I have is his style. Those glittery suits are too much.

So, you share his views for example that abortion is a sin or that lesbians “do not exist”?

His argument wasn’t that lesbians don’t exist, he was saying in that speech that sexuality is a spectrum and I totally agree with that. Also, from the religious perspective abortion is a sin. Biblically speaking, life starts with conception.

That doesn’t mean that I am fully against abortion, in certain cases I would advocate for it.

Can you see why some people find it ironic that you speak for bodily autonomy for transsexual and transgender people, while not advocate for female bodily autonomy and reproductive rights?

I think a woman can do whatever she wants with her body. I absolutely advocate for that. I also believe in the right to abortion, but I’m not an active advocate for it. I would rather invest much more into sexual education and contraception. I also don’t see abortion as evil, I sympathize with most people who go through with it, because I understand the desperation behind it. For me the issue really starts after week 12, when the nervous system is developed and the aborted fetus can feel the pain of being literally ripped apart.

I then present to her a clinical review on this topic, along with a statement from Kate Connors.

Kate Connors, a spokesperson for the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, says that “The science shows that based on gestational age, the fetus is not capable of feeling pain until the third trimester.” That is around 27 weeks after implantation. Does this fact change your perception of your latter statement?

I will have a close look at those statistics because they vary extremely from study to study.

However, if it really is 27 weeks, then that certainly affects my opinion.

This is a clinical review, so a lot of journals and scientific finding were considered in this piece. In the section “evidence acquisition”, you can see how many articles to which topic they considered.

Zuzanna then read over the clinical review and shared her thoughts about it.

Okay, so the evidence in the scientific journal you have quoted does indeed seem convincing, however, there are numerous reliable sources that claim that a fetus can experience pain even more intensely than an adult, starting from around the 20th week. Most countries allow for abortion to still take place between weeks 22 - 24. “Having administered anesthesia for fetal surgery, I know that on occasion we need to administer anesthesia directly to the fetus, because even at these early gestational ages the fetus moves away from the pain of the stimulation,” stated David Birnbach, M.D., president of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology and self-described as “pro-choice,” in testimony before the U.S. Congress.” So, I would say that I am an individual who supports the right to abortion but would do everything in my power to decrease the need for it in the first place. I would strive to provide support for single mothers, some form of a welfare system to help them and of course, provide free contraception and sex education in schools. I also think that there isn’t anyone in their right mind who would say that abortion should be legal at absolutely every point just because the mother “feels like it.” The question is when do we think the fetus actually becomes human and deserves its right to life to be protected. In my eyes, this comes early. The other question is the consequences of illegal abortion, which is extremely harmful and often results in complications. We have to be honest, abortion is always going to happen and we need to give women this right, but we should strive to stop the source of the problem.

I think we should move on the discussion into a rather recent happening that has baffled many.

What is your take on Laci Green and the situation around her lately?

I haven’t had the opportunity to watch her most recent debate, but I value her willingness to look at things from many perspectives, question her own assumptions and be open to arguments. What she talks about, like there potentially being only two genders, is a great u-turn for the liberals like her. I think she’s setting an example for her followers and encourages people to be more open and willing to discuss issues like this, without fearing the backlash and prosecution from the LGBT movement.

I think what she was saying were to sexes, as rooted in reproductive biology, while genders could potentially be endless due to personal feelings and impressions of oneself.

She argues that sometimes gender refers to genitals, that indicates two genders. But, then she remarks that it also can refer to society’s gender roles “boys do this, girls do this.” Meaning, that depending on your understanding and the definition of gender you use, the claim that there are two, is legitimate.

But then you may also argue for that all those of whom does not fit in in such a binary society would be so called non-binary. Also, if that was the definition, where would that line go between being male or female, or neither?

I see only certain parts of gender as socially constructed and the rest as biological. The degree to which biology influences our gender roles extends from a mother’s strong caring instincts, to women wearing makeup or the color red to attract partners. Since the main point behind all of our biology is the survival of the species, and the only way this happens is through a male and a female, we are divided in a way that when masculinity drops the ball femininity steps in and vice versa. There will never be an individual who perfectly fulfills all of those gender specific roles and expectations, but that doesn’t mean they constitute a third gender - in other words a non-binary.

Zuzanna has not seen Laci Green’s second video, where she explains her views further, along with other point of views. I show this video to her, so that we are on the same page.

So, what is your impression of her views now after seeing that video?

There are a lot of things to respond to, but my view on this whole issue which in general ties to what she touches upon is that you essentially are what others see you as. I would compare this to countries, what makes some piece of land one? A recognition from the rest of the world that it exists. In many ways, I feel like having your identity recognized by the world works in a similar manner. If you present as a woman, people will take you for one and you will experience life from the position of that gender. So, to sum it up, I respect and treat transsexuals who do not pass as the gender they identify with, but the way I see it is that you truly are what the society perceive you as.

In other words, “passing” is the same with other genders as with transgender people?

I’m not sure what you mean? Transgender people aren’t a third gender.

But it sounds very similar to your definition of passing as a transgender woman or man; that you are defined by how other perceive you.

In terms of how and where you exist in public spaces, your outer appearance is the most important factor. So a transexual like who does not pass, shouldn’t expect to be taken for who they identify as from the get go. If you fulfill the social expectations of female appearance, you’re a female in my eyes, unless you actively inform me that you do not identify as such. In that case, I will respect your identity.

Is that not basically the same as saying if someone validates you as a certain gender that you identify with, then, since they fulfil the social expectations, they are the gender as they identify as? Thus, there are potentially infinite amount of genders, like Laci Green says?

I would say no, because when you walk down the street and you see an individual with a cleavage, long hair wearing a red dress you don’t think they are agender type gender void, you think they’re a woman. Similarly, when you see an individual in a suit, with muscular arms and a beard you don’t assume they’re non binary, you see a man.

We are wired to recognize people by their gender, which is biological and binary and all the other 95 “genders” are just made up terms to describe people who don’t fully subscribe to male and female. The problem is, no one fulfills all of the gender specific expectations. I know a guy with bigger breasts than 90% of my friends. That doesn’t invalidate him as a man or make my girl-friend less of woman.

Ok, so if you were to boil all that to one statement, what would that be?

Gender is mainly biological, with some aspects of it socially constructed. There are only two genders and the concept of non-binary and 97 genders is purely political, with no backing in science. I respect male to female and female to male transsexuals and support them with my whole heart, but the truth is that no matter which gender we identity with, the way the society perceives us determines the space in which we can safely exist.

The last topic of I thought we could talk about, is your stance on capital punishment, especially concerning in relation to paedophilia.

You are in favour of capital punishment, and state that we should kill all paedophiles. Can you try to justify that view in one sentence, for those who have not seen your video about the topic?

I’m a supporter of capital punishment and torture in cases of absolute certainty that the individual has committed a crime like sexually abusing children, rape, and genocide. My stance is that there are crimes an individual can commit that are so atrocious and damaging to others that they forfeit the criminal’s right to life. Molesting children is not only one of the worst and most psychologically and physically harmful crimes that can be committed against a child, it preys on the trust and the unconditional love a child has to offer. The reason pedophiles deserve this punishment is that a countless amount of research has demonstrated therapy and medication to be ineffective and require them to willingly submit themselves to those treatments. A pedophile is a great manipulator who knows how to silence a child and is a ticking bomb to becoming a child molester. They will take every opportunity they have to abuse a child because they cannot control their instincts. This comes from the structure of their brain, which is significantly different from a healthy individual.

You also advocate for torture? How does torture fit into the equation?

It can be an effective deterrent and punishment for certain crimes. As a loose example, I would say that a man who beats his wife regularly and so hard that she ends up in a hospital would be whipped as punishment.

How does that really solve the root of the problem?

It doesn’t solve the “root” of the problem but is an adequate punishment. Physical punishment has been demonstrated to deter people from repeating a crime more than jail. Also, it has to be understood that I wouldn’t just send people to get tortured for anything, a proper example of when that would happen would be against terrorists.

Norway has one of the lowest incarceration rates, just 75 per 100,000 people, compared to 707 people for every 100,000 people in the US. They are known to have quite mild punishments, but focus on treatment. So far it has been very successful, Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world at 20%. The US has one of the highest: 76.6% of prisoners are re-arrested within five years. Do you think these statistics are coincidences?

Not at all, and just like in Norway in my dream country people who have committed mild crimes would be sent to “new prisons”, where there would be a strong focus on rehabilitation, education and bringing them back into the society. Their punishment wouldn’t necessarily be that they would have to stay in prison for two years for stealing, but rather that they would have to do a set amount of social work to pay back their debt to society and meanwhile live in the “new prison”, which would have all the necessities for them to live with dignity, but certainly not the luxury Norway provides. That would include doing jobs that the local govermentmets do not have the money to pay other to do, or nobody wants to do them, like cutting grass by the motorways or cleaning the forests. But, criminals who have done absolutely atrocious crimes like terrorists or people like Breivik would be punished with capital punishment.

I see your point. But let us go back to the paedophilia issue. Do you think all paedophiles are inherently evil?

Yes, absolutely.

Even if it is a mental issue?

Yes, it doesn’t matter that’s it’s a mental issue. It’s something that makes them commit crimes which are unjustifiable and they don’t even see raping children as something bad. During therapy they need to be convinced that the children aren’t enjoying [an] act of rape.

There are individuals that are just the impersonation of evil, and pedophiles fit into that category perfectly.

Let us say, for sake of argument, that we could screen out the foetuses that have genes that are shown to give higher risk of paedophilia. Would you do that?

Absolutely. In fact, I would find the funds to screen an entire nation to root out all pedophiles.

The number of children this would save from abuse and stop them from abusing drugs and alcohol in adulthood as a means of dealing with their trauma would be incredible. 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys are abused, so you can only imagine the scale of the problem.

How about other forms of mental illnesses that are known to cause harm to others?

Other forms of illness can be controlled by medication. Nothing works for pedophilia.

Also, no other mental illness causes as much harm and harms as many people. When you really think about it, not getting rid of pedophiles is the real atrocity.

If it is fine with you to kill paedophiles, how do you feel about capital punishment for crimes such as drug trafficking? That surely ruins a lot of lives too.

You see, here the issue is far more complicated. I understand that in a lot of places people are so desperate that the only way to survive is through sex work or dealing. This is why I support some form of a social welfare system. I want to eliminate poverty as a stimulus for crime. However, if there is a drug lord who forces people to deal for him, kills people and produces drugs for the sake of making money, despite harming so many people, then capital punishment for an individual like this would be an option.

Do you differentiate between paedophilia and paedophilic disorder? Why do you think so many people do?

Not at all, a pedophile is a pedophile.

It seems like there is a growing trend from the left to support and try to justify pedophilia. To do that they try to make distinctions and extend definitions of concepts that are simple. They have done this with the definition of racism, now they’re moving onto pedophilia. It’s nothing short of insanity.

How is hebephilia, a sexual attraction by adults in pubescent children, and ephebophilia, the sexual attraction of mid-to-late adolescents, different from paedophilia and would you still advocate for capital punishment for those whom are identified as any of those said disorders?

I don’t know as much about those concepts and I don’t know to what extent those people can control their desires. If research shows that those disorders resemble a pedophile’s uncontrollable sexual need, then I would certainly punish hebephiles. In the case of ephebophilia it depends on how old the individuals they are attracted to are. If they are young adults, I mean the age of 16 or more. Then no, because a 16 year old is capable of consenting to sex.

I see. Before we end the interview I just want to ask about you perception of the media. CNN, The Huffington Post, The New York Times and so forth has often been portrayed by some of those who identify as right-wingers, as biased or “fake-news”. What is your opinion?

I agree with that statement. The CNN has been caught multiple times manipulating information, same with The New York Times and Trump supposedly mocking their disabled journalist. But, same goes for media like the Fox News. Honestly, they’re all the same. One has to think about what they see in the mainstream media extremely critically and always question and fact check the information they provide.

How would you characterise media outlets such as “The Rebel”, “Breitbart” and others that are often characterised as right wing and biased?

I feel like pretty much everything that is feed to us is produced with a certain agenda and is trying to convince people of a given reality. But, when it comes to The Rebel Media, I respect the craftsmanship that goes into their videos. I also appreciate and enjoy the topics they work with. I don’t think they have ever been particularly biased towards the right, I think they simply show the hypocrisy and insane ideas of the SJW community.

The Rebel Media has shown to be not as honest themselves; an analysis done by a known critic of everything that he finds wrong, regardless if it is feminism or those who oppose the facts of global warming, called Thunderf00t on YouTube and other social media, showed that Lauren Southern for the Rebel Media during the demonstration against Trump were not as honest as they could have been.

I don’t know about this specific incident, but as I said everything is produced with an agenda and one can never be 100% objective in everything they do.

If you are interested in seeing more of Zuzanna, she is going to have a stream on Thursday the 21st 2017 with Autumn Asphodel. She also has plans for a collaborative video with Ollie Chadra.

She says she is continuing with her political commentary, as well as updates on her transition. Zuzanna hopes that studying law will open her eyes to new debates and discussions.

You can find her on Twitter and YouTube.